The Roadrunners

Bob Wooler reminisces...

This is an abridged version of an interview with Cavern DJ Bob Wooler, found on the 'Net and taken from Record Collector magazine, July 1998 (No 227).

You worked as a clerk at British Railways. Did you intend to make that your career?
No, I really wanted to be a songwriter. I was influenced by the great lyricists of the pre-rock period - Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, Johnny Mercer and the like - but I could never find a collaborator. I admired Lionel Bart, who started in rock'n'roll and became a legitimate songwriter, if I may put it that way. Of course, he lived in London, which helped a great deal. It all happened down there - as I was to learn, as the Beatles were to learn, as everybody was to learn. I did tout some lyrics around Denmark Street but no one wanted to know.

When the beat groups came along, did you give them your lyrics and ask them to put music to them?
Occasionally. I did write a few rock'n'roll songs, but even they may have been too sophisticated. The groups were polite but I drew a blank because of CV - not curriculum vitae but cover versions. That's all they would do, cover versions. I have a list of songs the Beatles used to perform in Liverpool. There are 99 songs on this list and only five or six of them are self-penned, usually by Paul. Groups hardly ever did their own songs even if they could write, because they were covering songs that American groups were doing.

You witnessed the change from skiffle to beat music. What do you see as the key events in the changeover?
I came into the scene in '57, which was an active year for skiffle and rock in Liverpool as groups were starting to proliferate. By then, Lonnie Donegan had served his purpose. They had learnt from him the simplicity of playing music. It was do-it-yourself music as it didn't involve you learning an instrument properly as you would the trumpet or violin - and slinging a guitar round your shoulder looked rather cool as well. The cost was a problem, but the HP (hire purchase) houses did well out of it. They still do.

A lot of people were contemptuous about rock'n'roll.
Oh yes, the country and western brigade regarded the rock'n'roll groups as a novelty, while the jazz bands poured contempt on them. I got a hell of a bad name for encouraging rock'n'roll to be played at the Cavern. The Cavern was a jazz cellar and the musicians and their followers didn't like rock'n'roll groups coming in. The groups were cheaper than the jazz bands, and I'm sure that had a lot to do with it.

How did you get involved in running the Cavern?
In 1960 I decided to go pro. I would say to my fellow clerks on the railway, "This is not my station in life", and so on. They would say,"Wooler's gone off the rails". All very funny, but they couldn't believe that I would pack in my job to go to the Top Ten club in one of the most difficult areas in Liverpool. Allan Williams launched the club and he took the name from the Top Ten club in Hamburg. It lasted five days and then someone got careless with the Bryant and Mays.
I soon learned about incinerations, as that was not the only place that went up in smoke. A promoter in the north end of Liverpool, Brian Kelly, came to the rescue and I worked at his circuit of dances. The Remo Four told me about the Cavern and I went there one lunchtime in December 1960. It was a forbidding place, a Black Hole of Calcutta, noisy and initially menacing.

But, in its favour, it couldn't be torched.
No, only the chairs were flammable, but there was no back exit or entrance. The ventilation left a lot to be desired and I was sure I was going to get TB. At the end of his set, Johnny Hutch of the Big Three thrust a Reslo mike at me and said, "Make an announcement". I'd had a little wine and I said, "Remember all you cave-dwellers, the Cavern is the best of cellars". (Cavern owner) Ray McFall was at the other end of the club and heard me - and that's how I got the job of introducing the Cavern's lunchtime sessions.
I used to run ads for the Cavern which said, "Meet the Beat that's reet for the feet" or "The venue with the menu with the mostest".

Did you see anything of the Cunard Yanks bringing in American records for the groups?
That is one of those myths. I have yet to meet anyone who could show me a record that was taken up by one of the groups that was not already available in this country. The songs could be obscure but they were released here. Possibly the merchant seamen brought in country and western records, but with regards to rock'n'roll records, I'm a man from Missouri. A man from Missouri always, says, "Show me". Only then will he believe it.

When were you aware that there was something special about the Beatles?
You can write your own entry for Who's Who, and Paul McCartney has written, "Made first important appearance as the Beatles at Litherland Town Hall near Liverpool in December 1960". They had come back from Hanburg and they had no work. Mona Best had given them work at the Casbah but she couldn't sustain them as a residency and I got them in on Brian Kelly's circuit. It was Tuesday 27th December 1960 - a Beekay, Brian Kelly, dance. I am pleased that I got them the booking. I asked for £8 and Brian nearly collapsed because he was a tight wad but then most of the promoters were. He offered £4 and we compromised on £6, which is £1 a man, five Beatles, and £1 for the driver. I didn't take my 10 per cent. The impact was so tremendous on that Tuesday evening that Brian Kelly got his diary out and he signed them for a string of dates for £7.10s, 30 bob (£1.50) a man. He posted a bouncer on the door that led backstage to stop any other promoters getting to the Beatles.

Had you heard the new-look Beatles when you got them that booking?
No, I hadn't and I was fab-bergasted. Other groups weren't doing these songs, they were concerned with the hit parade and the Beatles liked all this obscure R&B stuff. They were on for 30 minutes and they just rocked the joint. They put everything into that performance. I went backstage and I congratulated them and there was Kelly with his diary, "Are you free on such and such a date?".

Do you think Hamburg had transformed them?
I'm not sure. If Hamburg is so magical that it transforms groups, then how come it didn't transform the Big Three, Rory Storm & the Hurricanes, Derry & the Seniors, Gerry & the Pacemakers and the others? I saw them before they went and when they came back, and I noticed no great difference. This is another myth of the scene. Of course, it was a strange environment, a strange people, a strange language, long hours and exploitation. Hamburg gave the Beatles the awareness of working as a team and maybe that was the most important factor.

You mentioned this list of songs that the Beatles performed in their Cavern days.
The list was given to me by a Beatles fan, who followed them around Merseyside. They took "Red Sails In The Sunset" from Ray Sharpe, and they used to call "Besame Mucho" "Besammy Leacho" for Sam Leach the promoter. They got "Falling In Love Again" from Hamburg and Paul got some songs from his father. Stuart would do "Love Me Tender" and he would stand at the front of the stage and croon the song, and there would just be George doing a few chords. There is an instrumental, "Beatle Bob", on the list - the Beatles used to call themselves the Big Beat Boppin' Beatles, so the title might really be "Beatle Bop".

What do you remember of the Beatles' final appearance at the Cavern on 3rd August 1963?
That only came about because Epstein couldn't pull them out of a booking at the Grafton Ballroom the night before. Les Ackerley said, "No, I have got them under contract", and Epstein was furious because, by then, he had other things in mind for them. They were coming to Liverpool for the Friday, so we were offered them on Saturday. We only had them because he couldn't get them out of the Friday booking. I rather resented this as he was doing it to get at Ackerley, to steal his thunder.
The Beatles were paid £300, which was quite a bit of money then. We made no money out of it because Brian restricted the audience to 500 and as the admission price was ten shillings, that meant £250 on the door. All the staff had to be paid, and the other groups on the bill too. I can't blame Brian as he had seen how crowded the Cavern got when we had 800 in. The Beatles were very professional that night, there was no larking around and they got on with it. We all felt it was their swan song and that we would never have them again. As it happens, Brian Epstein still owes the Cavern about six dates for the Beatles as he kept pulling them out of lunchtime and evening bookings by saying, "You wouldn't stand in the boys' way, would you, Bob?".

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